5 Card Draw - Basic Strategy & Ideas

harry_lime · 5 Card Draw - Basic Strategy & Ideas

5 Card Draw - The Game
This beginners piece has also been included in the My-Local-Poker Quick Draw Mini-League thread (second post) here, along with screenshots and explanations of how to play this format at Doyles Room.

Pre-Draw Playable Hands - Basic Rule Of Thumb
Firstly, it’s very important to remember that the Big Blind (BB) in 5 Card Draw will always be the last to act in both betting rounds, pre-draw and post-draw. With this in mind :

When first to act, you should be looking at minimum for premium pairs (Queens upward) or better as playable hands. 10’s and Jacks are also acceptable from a middle to late position. In terms of single pairs, flat calling with anything but Aces or Kings is the smart move but a more aggressive approach can be taken from the button (last to act) as you will often have a great possibility to take down the pot there and then with a raise (not just 2 times the BB of course).

As for small to medium pairs, only play these from the SB or BB (typically a call or check). Many players will often play these out of position looking for trips but with players to come behind you and facing potential raises, these hands are better discarded. Again these hands don’t really give you the odds to make them playable.

Flush and Straight draws are rarely worth chasing from an early or middle position (except perhaps in the early rounds where limping would be acceptable). You simply won’t have the odds to justify these hands; eg. 4.2 to 1 for your flush. In a late position and if first to act, these can be good raising hands as a semi-bluff or a limp is acceptable when having one or more aggressive players still to come behind you. It is usually sensible to fold these kind of hands to a raise unless you have both the flush and straight draw. Steer well clear of inside straight draws as these will rarely pay.

The Draw
Usually, what you should discard will be a simple enough decision. Some players will often keep a big kicker with a pair, but as it’s rare in 5 Card Draw for the kicker to be relevant (for a split pot), it is far better to discard 3 and give yourself a better chance to hit trips.

Pay Attention To How Many Cards Other Players Take
This is your best chance to assess the strength or weakness of your opponents hands, here's some standard scenarios :
Player takes no cards = They have a made hand or will sometimes be preparing to bluff (feels great when this comes off) if isolated with one other player.
Player takes one card = If they have not raised pre-draw, they will usually be looking for a straight or flush. If they have raised pre-draw, most likely they already have at least 2 pair.
Player takes two cards = Could well be trips or the BB (no raises pre-draw) looking to get lucky.
Player takes three cards = They have at least a pair or again the BB (no raises pre-draw) looking to get lucky.
Player takes four cards = This should only be the BB when allowed in cheap.

Post Draw Play
You should have a decent idea of what your opponents are holding by this stage. Check, bet, raise or call depending on a combination of your made hand, position and the size of the pot. 5 Card Draw is almost the ultimate bluff game so be sure that you only make worthwhile value calls when you feel you are probably behind.

Summary
There is of course, loads more that could be said about the strategy and hands in 5 Card Draw, but I think most of you are good enough players to work your way around these basic ideas. If you have it, there is a great section about 5 Card Draw in Doyle Brunson’s Super System by Mike Caro, one of the true experts of this format. Hopefully I haven’t contradicted too much that he has written there and naturally it should be remembered, that his piece was written primarily for the live game and no doubt the online approach will reflect the typical differences that we see in the game today.

This little piece is very much a beginners guide and is based upon some solid research and my own experience playing this format. I hope it will help some of you a little prior to our first game at Doyles Room and whilst I would never claim to be an expert in this format (7 Card Stud was more my game), i’ll be happy to try and answer any questions should you have them.

If there are any 5 Card Draw aficionados that would like to expand on this thread, i’m sure we would all appreciate even more insight into this classic game !

Note : DangerMouse's personal guide with more plays and strategy : A 5 Card Draw Strategy

DangerMouse

Nice guide there Harry. Are we playing FL or PL (please don`t say NL)?

harry_lime

Know-nuffin

My thought has been, because the average winning hand in five card draw is usually going to be higher than the average winning hand in say five-card stud, pot odds have more consideration.

DangerMouse

Mrs know-nuffin

Thank you for this Harry.

I have never played 5 card draw before so this was interesting to read.

Looking forward to the games.

HOUSECATS

What happens if i get 2 black As and 2 black 8s

Know-nuffin

harry_lime

Post Game Comments

So we've just played our first 5 Card Draw game over at Doyle's.

Having played the game, how did you find it ?

Did you stick to the basis of this strategy thread or find a different game that worked for you ?

Was it what you expected ?

How prepared did you feel or did you wing it all the way ?

I've seen a couple of comments about how fast the game was, anything else spring to mind ?

Please post here and feel free to give hand examples if you have any.

HOUSECATS

I haven't played 5-draw for about 30 years. But I don't remember haveing so many big hands at showdown. Is this normal in live and online tournys?

It was kind of hard to see how many cards people took it flashed so fast.

harry_lime

Know-nuffin

harry_lime

Mrs know-nuffin

I found looking at the large chat box helpful too, things moved so quickly that the small chat box was impossible to follow.

This is what you do:

In the bottom left hand corner of the screen is the usual small box we are used to with four tabs (see picture below).

When you click on the chat tab, you will notice a symbol in the bottom right hand corner. Click on this, and it will bring up the big chat box to the right of your screen just like at P.com.

I cannot think of anything to add about the game that has not been said. It was great fun, I remembered what you said in the strategy thread (never played it before) and bore this in mind.

It actually didn't take long to get comfortable with it even though it was fast, and the antes played a hug part towards the end. They alone were a huge pot to win.

Thanks for setting it up.

harry_lime

Play Book

The Stand-Pat Bluff
For some of you this will be an obvious move but for the newbies to the game, perhaps a play worth considering, especially if the cards aren't running kindly and you have a tight image at the table.

Example 1
The first example shows the importance of position and keeping track of your opponents draw. A relatively simple move when made at the right time. Sorry i didn't get the hand history for this one but i remember it pretty well. We were 5 or 6 left, blinds at 100/200 - the 3 players involved were all with comfortable stacks :

- I was last to act and in front of me muratore and BlackTyson had both flat called the big blind. I made a standard x3 the blind raise with pocket aces.

- muratore folds and BlackTyson calls.

- On the draw BlackTyson took 2 cards which made me feel that she could well have been slow playing trips knowing i was very likely to raise. Of course she could also have had a pair with a big kicker but i decided to assume she was playing something bigger.

- Naturally the normal play would be to draw 3 cards to my aces but after seeing her draw, i decided to change my mind, show strength and "Stand Pat" as unless she got very lucky with a full house or quads, she would find a pot sized bet impossible to call.

- This is indeed what happened, she checked into me (no doubt assuming i had a made hand), i made a pot sized bet and forced the fold.

- This is a very good play in position, if you feel you may be behind on the draw but should not be over-used.

Example 2
BlackTyson herself made a similar "Stand-Pat Bluff" play out of position in a hand where 3 of us had all flat called the big blind. Again, she drew no cards in second position and after Player 1 had checked, made a calculated bet at the pot and took it down whilst showing us the hand (she had absolutely nothing). This was a good play but should be considered fairly high risk and only contenplated when your image has been tight as Blacktyson's had indeed been at the time.

Example 3
I did manage to grab one hand history of a "Stand-Pat Bluff" out of position once you have isolated an opponent. In this hand, i make a small raise when the blinds are high to try and make it look like i wanted a call. I have pre-determined to "Stand Pat" with the knowledge that a Big Stack is more likely to feel i have something with this bet rather than trying to take it down pre-flop. Again, a risky play but in 5 Card Draw, these will be essential, especially if you are somewhat card dead and/or short handed at the time :

** Hand # 2020573852 starting - 2008-05-22 00:39:20
** My-Local-Poker Quick Draw League[1732711]:Table 1 [Multi Table 5 Card Draw] (300.00|600.00 PL - MTT) Real Money

Missiehen sitting in seat 1 with 11630.00
UniquePoison sitting in seat 3 with 2580.00
harry77 sitting in seat 4 with 4390.00
Missiehen ante'd - 300.00
UniquePoison ante'd - 300.00
harry77 ante'd - 300.00

** Dealing hole cards to harry77:

** Dealing cards to harry77: 2h, 9c, Qc, 3h, Qs
harry77 > gg
UniquePoison > gg nh
Missiehen > wooooow
Missiehen > gg
harry77 bet - 600.00
harry77 > cheers
Missiehen called - 600.00
UniquePoison folded
harry77 exchanged 0 cards
Missiehen exchanged 3 cards
harry77 bet - 1200.00
Missiehen folded
harry77 mucks:
harry77 wins 3300.00 from the main pot

Summary :
Whilst the second two examples are pre-determined bluffs, the first example is a favourite move of mine as it invloves position, speed of thought and keeping a close eye on your opponents draw. In a sense it is almost one of the safest bluffs you can try in this game as you are doing it playing against your opponents odds of hitting his/her hand - in other words, gambling less on what they might be holding but more on what you are 95% sure they are not holding.

With all of these hands, you need to be ready to adjust depending on your opponents play. What you are looking for is players that are flat calling you and drawing at least one card. If a player re-raises pre-flop or also "Stands Pat" on the draw then more caution is advisable.

None of these bluffs should be over used in any tournament but when the blinds are high and your short handed, this will be a very useful play in your arsenal. I have no idea if "Stand Pat Bluff" is an official term, let's just call it a harry-ism for now.

Too simplistic ?
If any members have more useful or favourite plays that they would like to share, please post it here (we'd love to know your secrets).

BlackTyson

harry_lime

....and there i was giving you credit !

harry_lime

Post League Thoughts :

Would love to hear what people found difficult, enjoyed the most, etc, etc, whilst playing our little mini-league. Did any of this basic strategy help or did you find playing your own game gave you better results ?

One final thing i would say for any of those who plan to try playing 5 Card Draw live in the future. I honestly believe that you simply will not see so many big hands in an equivalent live game (especially 3 way monsters) and should adjust your game accordingly. I'm not saying that our game at Doyles is rigged as we're all competing on the same playing field so to speak, but i do feel that 2 pair/trips in a live game will do the job most of the time.

Would the other live players agree with that (particularly in Draw) ?

Miklosik

I loved this mini league and would like to do it again if possible. I hadn't played it years but coming from a very large family, I grew up playing pinnochle and 5 card draw. Never, ever, ever have I seen so many big hands at one table in one game. But as you so correctly point out Harry, we were all playing on the same field so it isn't rigged. Tbh, I don't remember ever checking with a high pair as kid as I did in these games. Used to be a pair of aces was darn near the nuts but it's a mucked hand in the online world.

DangerMouse

Miklosik

*raises hand*

harry_lime

katymaty

Good Advice Harry

1st lesson I learnt was watching how many cards players drew and sets aren't brilliant hands

HOUSECATS

Yes i notice the first game how big the hands where and tried to adjust for the later games. Your basic strategy was good because it had been 30 years since i played draw. I to would like to hear some game play from DM.