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Miklosik
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Convince me that this is a good ideaHere's the set-up. Both of these hands happened in the first 10 minutes of a $10 buy-in, 1k gtd. So it's still first level of blinds.
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I wasn't involved in either hand so this is not a rant post but strictly a strategy one.
With increasing frequency I see players pushing allin preflop with AK, AQ and the like from the opening hand of a tournament. I'm looking for someone to convince me that this is a viable strategy.
I would like to know, from those of you that use it, why you think it's a good move.
More curious to me is when a player holding one of these decent drawing hands will call another's push.
Talk to me people.
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PoolDemon
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no comment at the moment on the first hand...
2nd hand, pot odds & being a very short stack dictate this is a good time to push, the BB, seeing several limpers, seeing weakness must feel he has the best hand, re-pops it for isolation, neither one played it badly, IMO...
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Miklosik
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using simple math (not my best subject by far) I figure that there are 72 starting hands that are better than AK. That's 72. Seventy-two. Seven and two. That are better. BETTER! As in ahead. As in better.
I'm not convinced. C'mon. I know you guys are reading this. Step up and respond. I've issued a challenge. Let's go. I want to hear you. I need to hear you.
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DangerMouse
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The first hand sort of plays itself in certain respects. AK make a raise, one caller then the BB perfectly justifiably makes a re-raise. He doesn`t raise enough although it probably wouldn`t have mattered in this case as the AK is clearly willing to gamble and shoves. In poker thinking it`s a little dated. Most pro players now seem to agree that in the early stages of a tourney it`s better not to 3 bet AK. Far better to see a flop and play from there. It`s just someone overplaying a drawing hand and getting lucky.
Rob has pretty much outlined the thinking behind hand 2. The strategy is fairly sound but the raise is way over the top. He could probably have made it 300-400 to go and achieved the same effect. Then in the unlikely event that one of the EP players had been limping a monster he could get away from a re-raise.
It`s just very aggressive play. The concept is simple enough. Gain a large stack early on to give yourself a good shot at winning the tourney or bust out early and move onto the next game. The problem of course is that most of these players aren`t good enough to change gears when they have a big stack and utilise it well. For very good LAG players though, it`s a great strategy.
In most cases though the player probably hasn`t given much thought to strategy. Has seen far too much poker on TV and thinks because he sees big aces being shoved at the final table it`s something that should be done in the early levels too. There are other players that just don`t play flops well and so rather than putting pressure on themselves by just betting they shove and know they have no more decisions to make.
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HOUSECATS
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Early in a game is not the time for this kind of play. Your in the game to get to the money and the FT not to go out early on a coin flip. This type of player will give you all there chips if wait for the right time.
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Arjonius
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I think many players just want to gamble. It's not totally ridiculous, especially if you are a below average player in the tournament you're playing, in which case playing fewer but bigger pots may be better strategy than playing normally - the Kill Phil philosophy.
That said, if you're above average and better able to chip up in a controlled manner with less variance through your ability advantage and generally making better decisions than your opponents, it's probably in your interest to do so.
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Know-nuffin
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Hand 2 looks like a standard move to clear out the chaff before the flop, even if it is way over-bet.
Hand 1 well... early in a tourney keep your head down. Later in mtt's the play is more considered and no one ever shoves with AK. 
If you find someone really has no flop game, invite them to a cash table. 
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Miklosik
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| DangerMouse wrote: |
It`s just very aggressive play. The concept is simple enough. Gain a large stack early on to give yourself a good shot at winning the tourney or bust out early and move onto the next game. The problem of course is that most of these players aren`t good enough to change gears when they have a big stack and utilise it well. For very good LAG players though, it`s a great strategy.
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Somewhere along the line, I must have blurred the line between aggressive and stupid. Between skill and dumb luck. What is it that you consider a good LAG player? I don't know of any LAG player that would think it a good thing to race at this point in the tournament. And having been reraised, freshflush had to have known that a race was exactly what he was getting. Why make the initial raise in the first place? I would have thought that the reason freshflush raised , and didn't shove,to start with was to allow himself the option to get away from this hand if need be.
The idea of double up or go home is simply ridiculous to me. It reeks of freeroll mentality.
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DangerMouse
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| Miklosik wrote: | | DangerMouse wrote: |
It`s just very aggressive play. The concept is simple enough. Gain a large stack early on to give yourself a good shot at winning the tourney or bust out early and move onto the next game. The problem of course is that most of these players aren`t good enough to change gears when they have a big stack and utilise it well. For very good LAG players though, it`s a great strategy.
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Somewhere along the line, I must have blurred the line between aggressive and stupid. Between skill and dumb luck. What is it that you consider a good LAG player? I don't know of any LAG player that would think it a good thing to race at this point in the tournament. And having been reraised, freshflush had to have known that a race was exactly what he was getting. Why make the initial raise in the first place? I would have thought that the reason freshflush raised , and didn't shove,to start with was to allow himself the option to get away from this hand if need be.
The idea of double up or go home is simply ridiculous to me. It reeks of freeroll mentality. |
First I should say it`s not a strategy I like either. But there are players out there employing this kind of thinking. Perhaps this hand isn`t a prime example of it unless you look at it from the player holding KK pov. I was to some degree talking in general terms as much as about this hand in particular.
Again perhaps this hand isn`t a perfect example but I`ve heard serious NLHE tourney players (guys with over $500k in winnings, who play $100+ buy-ins) whose style is to either accumulate a large stack in the first hour or bust out and concentrate on another game. These guys are playing probably 30+ tournies a day and their only interest is making the final table and preferably the top 3 places.
But clarifying again, these are good LAG players who have a proven record and are fully aware of the risks inherent in their strategy. I`m not putting the players in the hand anywhere near that kind of level of skill. As I said in this case those players are probably just bad.
It`s a fine line between great play and outright donkiness. Is 4 betting with J-9 a good idea? I would generally say not but when you move up the stakes those are the kind of plays you will face (Watch Moorman sometime if you don`t believe me). As poker has become more aggressive there are a couple of ways to counter an opponents aggression. You either become even more aggressive, hyper-aggressive if you will. Or you slide back into the old school TAG style and pick off the maniacs with good hands and good post flop play.
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