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DangerMouse
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Do You Use . . .Heroin 
Only joking 
Does anyone here use online sites that provide rankings and tournament results for players? The obvious ones are Online Player rankings and Bluff, with Sharkscope to a lesser degree.
For anyone that`s not familiar with these sites they offer a range of information that shows what tournies people play. How successful they are, cashes, ROI, and the type of game they usually play.
I was in a razz tourney at Stars earlier on and looked up several of my opponents. I was really glad I did. It showed that most of them were terrible players (most of them had overall rankings of less than 40%) with for the most part very little experience playing razz. A very useful piece of information imo.
A very useful tool even if only to see how you are doing yourself.
You should also be aware that you can ask for your information to be concealed (although in the case of OPR I believe that means you won`t be able to look up other people - fairs fairs after-all)
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muratore
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only tried sharkscope from those 3, and then it was mostly when i played much more than i do now a days... and basically just to see where i was in my own results... 
had to check my nordica last night tho.. got an even nicer ROI there now, and a cute lil shark swimming by my name too 
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Know-nuffin
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I've looked but I don't give them any credence at all. 
When I view my own stats and find them wholly inaccurate I have to think that it is either not maintained properly, or simply doesn't work. 
One of the sites says at Nordica, my profit is minus $58. That is so wrong it's laughable.  But if it encourages other players to make a call against me when I'm holding the nuts, I'm not going to complain. 
I don't see how thinking a player doesn't have a good ROI affects a hand more than your evaluation of their play from player notes or from their current table play.
The ROI can also be misleading if, as many are doing, playing double or nuffin games to acrue FPP's the figures just don't tell you much.
I can see where you are coming from with the Razz, and other less typical games, but if I see someone betting a Razz hand with KKKQ9 on show I'm not gonna bother looking at their stats. 
Gosh... did I get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.
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PoolDemon
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I wouldn't go all in simply on the info (and lack of it) that you find on these sites. None of them seem to track everything, & if they don't, how good is this info to you ? And what they do track, well, I dunno...
A false negative ROI is a perfect example of thinking players could be bad, a listing of me on PS from OPR for "all tracked" shows -100%, LOL, not playing much on there, but already cashed out once from my inital 50 buck deposit, for $200.00 aprox (no bonus money) leaving not much, & am almost back to 100 again, unless my math is slightly off, I think I maybe might have made a wee bit O' profit, maybe, dunno...
(There was a bad luck run in 07, a lot of 1 buck 45 player Sitngoes where I didn't cash, which is accurate, but info is def incomplete and in-accurate)
Tracking me on Party Poker is interesting, my ROI is 298%, WOW eh...
I keep track of my account balances, I only update it once a month, I've only had one month where I lost a bit of money since I started playing online, all the rest of the time I've made some sort of profit, for not playing much, AFAIK a negative ROI would tend to make that impossible, wouldn't it ?
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DangerMouse
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You`re both talking about Sharkscope. It doesn`t really compare (at least what you can see for free) against OPR.
OPR tracks all the non-private mtts. I even have a couple of 10c buy-ins listed amongst my results.
In itself I think it`s pretty useful. Just knowing that your opponent only cashes 10% of the time is a useful piece of info. It also gives you a much better idea of their long term success. You might think a particular player is a complete donk but then you look at his record and find he has a 60% ROI and gets itm 25% of the time you can re-examine his play. Perhaps he`s having a bad day or perhaps he has a very LAG style that works for him. Whichever it is you now know to be wary of him because he`s a successful player.
When you combine it with your own reads and a few looks at HH to see what your opponent called with and then folded it gives a much clearer picture imo. As poker is a game of information, it just makes sense to get as much as you can as quickly as possible. I`m not suggesting you use it for every player at your table but when you get a hunch that a player is good or bad this is a quick way of checking.
It probably is a little more useful for the non-standard games but still worthwhile checking. And unlike sharkscope OPR is free.
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PoolDemon
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DM, I was talking about OPR, just so you know, and it is not accurate, or accurate enough that I would put any faith in the info it gives out.
Tell me how it's possible to have a -100% ROI, when I made aprox 300 on an intial 50 bucks on PS ? (or do I need a new funky bling bling calculator ???)
Same goes for the other end, how is it possible for a +298% ROI on PP ? (yeah I made money, but not 300% ROI)
Not knocking getting all the info possible to aid oneself, but if that info is tainted, in-complete, or sometimes totally out of whack, in my mind it's not helpfull...
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DangerMouse
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| PoolDemon wrote: | I wouldn't go all in simply on the info (and lack of it) that you find on these sites. None of them seem to track everything, & if they don't, how good is this info to you ? And what they do track, well, I dunno...
A false negative ROI is a perfect example of thinking players could be bad, a listing of me on PS from OPR for "all tracked" shows -100%, LOL, not playing much on there, but already cashed out once from my inital 50 buck deposit, for $200.00 aprox (no bonus money) leaving not much, & am almost back to 100 again, unless my math is slightly off, I think I maybe might have made a wee bit O' profit, maybe, dunno...
(There was a bad luck run in 07, a lot of 1 buck 45 player Sitngoes where I didn't cash, which is accurate, but info is def incomplete and in-accurate)
Tracking me on Party Poker is interesting, my ROI is 298%, WOW eh...
I keep track of my account balances, I only update it once a month, I've only had one month where I lost a bit of money since I started playing online, all the rest of the time I've made some sort of profit, for not playing much, AFAIK a negative ROI would tend to make that impossible, wouldn't it ? |
Certainly at Stars it`s tracked everything I`ve ever played whilst I`ve been using the site. The ROI figure might be a little off because they estimate for rebuys and I think they round some figures off. Your huge ROI at party simply indicates you probably only played a few games there and you won or top 3`d at least one, maybe a couple. A single win in a fairly large field makes a huge difference to your ROI.
Also don`t forget it doesn`t track cash games. I don`t know how often you play ring games but that could certainly account for discrepancies between your own records and theirs.
I`m not suggesting you use it solely as a basis to make a huge decision like calling an all-in. All I`m saying is that it gives you a lot of extra info for the sake of visiting the site and typing your opponents name in. There was a player in a stud8b tourney I was playing that was foul mouthed and came across as a complete idiot. Because of that (and wrongly) I thought he was probably a donk. As it turned out he was a pretty successful player in the FL games, especially 7 stud8b.
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DangerMouse
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Even if it`s incomplete info that`s better than no info. It`s a bit like poker tracker. You might have 100 hands against a player and your stats show he`s a losing player. In reality he might be very good and just ran bad the day you played him. The bigger the sample size the more accurate the info.
If I look up a player and he`s played 100 tournies and only played razz a couple of times it`s probably a fair assumption he`s a relative novice at the game. If I see he`s failed to cash in all of them and tends towards going out early that adds to the info. If I already thought he was a poor player and that`s why I`ve checked him it somewhat qualifies my views.
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PoolDemon
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ok, just an FYI, on PP, no 1 big win, some cash, some tournies...same for PS...
pretend you don't know me, and want info on me, seeing a -100% on PS, how are you going to play against me ?
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DangerMouse
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| PoolDemon wrote: | ok, just an FYI, on PP, no 1 big win, some cash, some tournies...same for PS...
pretend you don't know me, and want info on me, seeing a -100% on PS, how are you going to play against me ? |
Well as I said firstly I`m looking at your play on the table. If I think you`re either good or bad I might check your stats out. I`m then not really looking at your ROI as a deciding factor. I`m looking at the tournies you`ve played and where you finished in them. It might show that you play a lot of tournies and quite often make the lower places but rarely win or make the top 3. That would account for a relatively low ROI.
If you look at my stats my ROI for Om8b is -100%. But if you look at the tournies I`ve played you`ll only find 1 Om8b tourney and I failed to cash in that. That`s not really enough info to go on. All you can really get is that I don`t play om8b on Stars very often. Although it`s reasonable to suppose that I don`t play very many Om8b tournies at all (a supposition that would be correct in this case).
However if you look at my list of games and look through my 7 stud8b games you`ll find that I tend to get very deep into the field and I cash reasonably often although I don`t make a ton of final tables. From that it`s reasonable to suppose that I have a fairly tight and solid game and therefore when I suddenly come out firing bets I`m not that likely to be bluffing. Add that to the fact you`ve only seen me go to 7th a couple of times and on each occasion I`ve taken at least half the pot and you have a more complete picture. Your thoughts on my play at the table are backed up by tournament results.
Each to their own. I think it`s useful and will continue to use it to check out players. If you don`t find it useful that`s fine. I was just curious to see if anyone else made any use of it. On the bright side the thread has at least prompted a bit of healthy debate across both sides and anyone else reading it can use that to decide if they`re interested in taking a look at the site/s.
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Know-nuffin
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| PoolDemon wrote: | ok, just an FYI, on PP, no 1 big win, some cash, some tournies...same for PS...
pretend you don't know me, and want info on me, seeing a -100% on PS, how are you going to play against me ? |
I don't need to look at your stats to play you like I do any other donk.  
The OPR misses many games on P.Stars as they don't record the SnG's below 36 seat. That's bread and butter for many. The stats, like pot odds are another tool to be used with intelligence.
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SystEmsuX
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I used Sharkscope for a couple tourneys that were particularly important ones (to me) and I could figure at least a good portion of the field that was set to play. Didn't help much, it seems, ha. I can spot fish pretty quickly without that, anyway.
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