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Brian Wills
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HI/LO - In too deep & preyingHow do you avoid getting in too deep in Hi/lo chasing one side of the pot. Its a really tough one & would like other members thoughts on it.
Below are some games from last night where KN, Pool & I all did this & ended up playing some huge pots were we all got in too deep with marginal Hi/lo hands.
I'm no expert in Stud so anyone with a good Hi/lo game is needed here 
Harrys comments for one would be great 
| PoolDemon wrote: | | Mad mentioned about chasing the low to the river, I had a hand like that against Brian too, well I didnt chase the low, I had it by 5th street I think, but had to keep calling & suck out a straight on the river, that's part of the trouble with hilo, I was positive he had no low, so it's a split pot then, when it's HU in the betting, & your sure of who has what, why keep on betting though ? |
Ahh, you must be referring to this little river gem pool 
May need a rethink though 
Click to see full size image
Surely it couldn't be this one could it?
& how did I miss the low, great draw on 3rd for you though & at that point you had to be thinking of scooping.
I came up with my own flush draw & low chase here 
Click to see full size image
Should Pool have called this, he said he had 99, missed his low & made a great laydown.
What he didn't know was that I was chasing an open ended straight & flush but missed. Pool checked the river, sensing weakness & up to my neck in doodoo I bet out with King High & prayed 
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The hand I went out on.
I got way too deep without a low & KN gambled most of his stack on a flush draw & runner runner low
Click to see full size image
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PoolDemon
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Re: HI/LO - In too deep & preying | Brian Wills wrote: | How do you avoid getting in too deep in Hi/lo chasing one side of the pot. Its a really tough one & would like other members thoughts on it.
Below are some games from last night where KN, Pool & I all did this & ended up playing some huge pots were we all got in too deep with marginal Hi/lo hands.
I'm no expert in Stud so anyone with a good Hi/lo game is needed here
Harrys comments for one would be great
| PoolDemon wrote: | | Mad mentioned about chasing the low to the river, I had a hand like that against Brian too, well I didnt chase the low, I had it by 5th street I think, but had to keep calling & suck out a straight on the river, that's part of the trouble with hilo, I was positive he had no low, so it's a split pot then, when it's HU in the betting, & your sure of who has what, why keep on betting though ? |
Ahh, you must be referring to this little river gem pool
May need a rethink though
hmmm, think i was eating my supper there, explains the lack of clarity...
Click to see full size image
Surely it couldn't be this one could it?
& how did I miss the low, great draw on 3rd for you though & at that point you had to be thinking of scooping.
I came up with my own flush draw & low chase here
Click to see full size image
you were showing rags, I had 4 clubs on 4th street, no way im folding there unless you show a trips or something wicked...
Should Pool have called this, he said he had 99, missed his low & made a great laydown.
What he didn't know was that I was chasing an open ended straight & flush but missed. Pool checked the river, sensing weakness & up to my neck in doodoo I bet out with King High & prayed
I was almost all in with 99 if I bet,
i left myself enough chips to get back in the game by folding, ...so nice bluff ; )
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The hand I went out on.
I got way too deep without a low & KN gambled most of his stack on a flush draw & runner runner low
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PoolDemon
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no matter how good your draw is, once you get to 5th street, & have called a bet, if your still drawing, you are really commited to the pot, so either fold 5th street, or play it out...
weigh your chips vs the betting vs the odds of hitting, along with the gut feeling that this is the hand that you are going to play to the river & hope like hell you finally hit something by then
that hand that I only had 99, i should have followed my own advice, but by folding there i would have enough chips left to climb back up the ladder...nice bluff, it worked, but really, you would have been called 99% of the time there, so not that good a bluff overall...
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harry_lime
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Re: HI/LO - In too deep & preyingA little hard without seeing exactly how the betting was but here are some thoughts anyway :
| Brian Wills wrote: |
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if brian is the aggressor then i think pool has to be out on 4th or 5th street. on 4th street he knows he's behind and has invested very little into the pot and has to assume you will bet 5th street too.
on 5th street, he's relying on runner, runner to have any confidence in the hand - which is pretty suicidal
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interesting that pool says that there is no way he's folding the flush draw. by 5th street, you look to have a lock on the low hand (even if you're drawing) which means pool knows he's most likely behind all the way to the river and giving you a potential scoop. having said that, much would depend on how the betting went here.
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50/50.
i think when Pool bets the 4th street then really you should be folding here and again you're calling a flush draw for 800 on 5th street.
even though pool could be bluffing, i think you should of been out by now.
by the river, i don't think pool has any choice as 2 x 9's in 7 card hi/lo is not really the hand you want to be calling your last chips with. brave bet on your part here.
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i think kn should have been folding your completion as he has to assume you are going to bet 5th street so effectively he's calling 1050 with little going on in his hand. for me he is unnecesarily commiting too many chips. as seems to be the way in 7 card or omaha, 4 suited cards appears to be an instant call even though in this hand there are already 6 spades showing for Kn and just 7 outs for the flush.
i don't agree that you are way to deep with the high hand as you know on 5th street that KN can only be drawing and you have as good a lock on the high hand as possible. in this stage of the tournament i think you had very little choice and played this correctly. |
i think generally speaking, we see too much chasing in the hi/low games but that has to be expected whilst players are learning and the stakes are low.
i think the thing to do when assessing these hands is to ask yourself if you would chase some of these hands in a $20 plus buy-in. funnily enough, you do see a lot of it on pokerstars where i played a month of $15 horse tournaments.
unfortunately i took an absolute beating on the rivers there even though i was often leaving my opponent with 4 or 5 outs. it would be great at some time for a medium/high stakes, deep stack, HORSE tourney at MLP because i think we would be surprised how different the level of play would be.
maybe we should try a do a $20 buy-in christmas special this year. might be something to aim at.
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Brian Wills
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Here's an interesting thought I had
We play so much Holdem looking at flops.
Now in stud you get all of your own cards to focus on, there is no communal board so its very easy to pay less attention to what your opponent is holding.
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harry_lime
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| Brian Wills wrote: | We play so much Holdem looking at flops.
Now in stud you get all of your own cards to focus on, there is no communal board so its very easy to pay less attention to what your opponent is holding. |
exactly right Brian.
i don't think enough players take into account the cards they see on the board. counting your opponents cards is extremely important especially when chasing reasonable odds on flushes and straights. often when you think you're odds are good when they are in fact far more limited by what you have seen out there but not counted.
if you have 3 or even 4 to the flush, have you counted the everything you have seen that went before ?
and naturally the same goes when playing for the low if you have noticed 3 or 4 players in pre-turns with low cards showing. this usually means there will be limited low cards available.
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PoolDemon
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that first hand of mine was definetely questionable, not paying attention while eating supper...(really, I was quite hungry & chowing down big time) no idea what i was thinking...
"FROM HARRY---interesting that pool says that there is no way he's folding the flush draw. by 5th street, you look to have a lock on the low hand (even if you're drawing) which means pool knows he's most likely behind all the way to the river and giving you a potential scoop. having said that, much would depend on how the betting went here."
A74 vs A62, no way do I feel that he's "way" ahead for the low, & also, at the most, there was one club out before the betting came out, if there were any at all & no others after, I have to consider that as good a flush draw as I'm ever going to get...
I kinda play stud mainly this way, late positions only unless very strong, I always look @ what i have compared to what is showing on the board to see if I have limited draws or not, if I see that a PP can't form a set, or I have 3 of one suit, but see 2 or 3 out on the board, I don't play it, the low hand is something you might be forced to play a lot in late positions, but it's not that great as it get split regularly...
for a 20 buck buy in, hell ya, bring it on, i'd play that anytime...maybe i'd be just a weee bit tighter, but not much
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harry_lime
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| PoolDemon wrote: | "FROM HARRY---interesting that pool says that there is no way he's folding the flush draw. by 5th street, you look to have a lock on the low hand (even if you're drawing) which means pool knows he's most likely behind all the way to the river and giving you a potential scoop. having said that, much would depend on how the betting went here."
A74 vs A62, no way do I feel that he's "way" ahead for the low,
where did i say that ? my words were "pool knows he's most likely behind all the way to the river". when i say brian looks to have a lock on the low, i mean that you have to draw runner, runner to hit it at this stage and you have no idea how brian is. yes, in hindsight, you see he had much the same but surely in the hand you must have suspected that he was likely to already have it or be drawing to one card. it's really a question of how you perceive the hand when you're in it.
this means you're really relying on the flush to give you any kind of hand at that stage and chances are you will likely be drawing to a split the pot at best by the end. as i said before you must know you're almost certainly behind (even if brian doesn't have the low) and you have to decide whether you feel the flush is worth chasing or not.
for me much depends on who was the aggressor here.
anyhoo, as i always say, this is just my opinion.
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DangerMouse
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Really need the full hand history and preferably in text format to do any serious analysis (opening the images is a pain on my pc)
But fwiw on the second hand I pretty much agree with Rob, I`m check calling to the end. 5th street isn`t a great card for him but if I`ve paid for 6th street it`s unlikely I`ll fold for a single bet just because of the size of the pot. The Q isn`t that bad a card on 6th it adds 3 outs if the straight is good and for one more bet it`s a no-brainer. If your first 4 cards are all the same suit unless there are a lot of cards already gone in that suit I find it worthwhile to chase if I can do so pretty cheaply. If it was in a hand with multiple people raising and re-raising I might not bother chasing beyond 5th street because it gets so expensive once the bet doubles for 6th str.
I like the bluff hand, nice steal on 7th. A lesson for you there Rob if you bet every street up to 6th then stop on 7th you`re leaving yourself wide-open for this kind of play. Although if you can isolate players that do this a lot you can of course set them up by checking and re-raising on 7th.
The final hand I don`t think you played badly given the size of your stack. You have to make a stand sometime. I might not have bet 4th street but I would certainly have called there. On 5th you make a set and KN pairs his board so nothing wrong with getting your chips in there.
However it does illustrate the weakness of hands that only go one way. I`ve ended up the loser on the cash tables playing rolled up x on several occasions at hi/lo.
If blinds don`t dictate otherwise I`m usually looking for hands that make good lows with a chance to make a high too. Whilst playing for the low is risky it also gives you that all important chance to scoop. Rolled up kings looks great as a starting hand but if it doesn`t improve it`s all too easy for it to be beaten by a straight or a flush. Another tactic is to look for hands where you are playing against multiple opponents but are playing for the part of the pot they`re not playing for. So if two platers are going at it hammer and tongs for the high and you have a good low or solid draw to one stay in the hand because you`re guranteed a nice payoff if you hit. (better play for cash than tourney though) The reverse side where you`re going for the high is also true although you have to be wary of those straights and flushes, unless you make a boat in which case ram and jam that pot for maximum value.
And Rob you`ll find that the low is split much less often at stud hi/lo than it is at om8b because there are no community cards.
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PoolDemon
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Harry, only what I had in itallics is what I quoted, the other was my words, thougth that was clear, sorry.
hand 2 :
Maybe I'm wrong, but we all don't make our hands by 4th or 5th street, so I assume, as this is a drawing game, that you sometimes have to gamble on a draw, & if it's a draw to what seems to be the nuts, and it seems like you should have the outs to make it, as in my flush draw, which only had either 1 or none showing any clubs when all were in the pot, and I drew the ace of clubs on 4th street, again with no others showing any clubs, how coud you not play that to the river ?
I also guessed he was not on a strong low draw, therefore I thought I was drawing to be ahead, only on 6th street did I give up on thinking I could get the best low hand too, & 7th finally hit for the flush.
Was this that bad of a play, I can see if there were even only 2 or 3 clubs showing that it would have been bad (actually, I wouldn't have played it)
I saw his ace, 7,4, & figured I was pretty darn close to whatever he might be drawing for, with my ace, 2 6, for the low, was that unrealistic ?
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harry_lime
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| PoolDemon wrote: | Was this that bad of a play, I can see if there were even only 2 or 3 clubs showing that it would have been bad (actually, I wouldn't have played it)
I saw his ace, 7,4, & figured I was pretty darn close to whatever he might be drawing for, with my ace, 2 6, for the low, was that unrealistic ? |
not really although i do think it depends on your perception of the hand. if you put brian close to the low hand then it does mean you're likely to be at best, splitting the pot. in that scenario, i don't think the flush is worth chasing and you can get out early without commiting many chips. if, as you rightly deduced, you think he is 2 cards away from the low then i can see the case for chasing the flush.
as DM is saying, once you're into 6th street, there's really no way you can fold but i am just questioning 5th street and obviously we see the position of the hand very differently. i would fold because i wouldn't want to draw into a likely split hand as at that point, i was really only drawing directly to the high. much would also depend on whether i felt i could get some free cards as well in which case i might even consider a re-raise if i had the stack. when the blinds are higher, i never like check calling unless i feel i am drawing directly to the hi and the lo. in other words i'm always one card away from feeling in a strong position.
from your perspective, i understand the way you played the hand and i never said it was that bad a play either. so i'm just questioning the perspective (and i see DM is with you on this one), saying what i would have done (Brian did ask) and going down the bar for a beer or three.
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Brian Wills
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As if I would post a play by Pool that was THAT bad 
This thread is provoking some great discussion on my weakest game, so I'm finding it fascinating.
Keep it coming guys 
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Know-nuffin
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Always interesting to read views on a hand I’m in and hope I’m not jumping in too quickly with my defence as I am wont to do:
I do feel the assessment of my position in the hand is not wholely correct by Harry and hope he can explain with more clarity based on my thoughts, not solely on the presented cards. 
One odd but relevant side issue; during the hand played in the mlp game I was into the HU with tfalbb on the PokerTime UK OFC event. This distraction inevitably meant I could not give my full concentration to both games.  This does not mean I would have played it differently.
I don’t remember whether or not I registered seeing the spade folded by Mad, to put it into any of my possible calculations.
Nowhere here does it tell my stack size, if Brian has the history that would help others. I believe the bubble had burst and I may have had as much as 7K to Brian’s 2.2K, or as little as 3.5K at the time, neither are a mammoth advantage, but with 600/1200 stakes something was gonna break soon. 
Brian is showing an Ace I am showing a 4, but with three suited I will want to see a flop. His Ace doesn’t scare me as I have one hidden, but do not know he has a pair. One on one, damn right I am going to call to see a 4th card. 
Brian bets fourth street; Well he was always going to do that; can’t let me have a third spade showing for free.  When I miss fifth street, Brian is in like a rat up a drain pipe, and I have a finite amount to call.  (yes I raised but all his were going in at some point, I just made it happen early). 
I will not try to justify my move with pot odds, I never had time to count them,  but will say; when blind on a 4 flush, you have 9 outs. Just assume while I can see Brian’s spade, I have forgot/missed Mads, so I have 8 outs, two cards to come 32% chance to improve my hand.  I can pretend I had other cards for two pairs and trips, and options on the low, but I didn’t have time work that out. 
In fact, the low was never in my mind, Brian clearly wasn’t playing for it either, so ignore the needing runner runner bit. This was a flush draw vs a made hand, as far as I remember I didn't think Brian had the thrid ace, why should I.
Now think of my outs this way; the next card will be one of four suits. I have 50/50 chance. Yep sure, ideally I want better odds than that, but what am I gonna do with a finishing price, having my opponent covered, other uncounted options and a need to win hands to progress in the money. 
Stacks and stakes the way they were, get in or get off.
Apologies if I am wrong with any of my facts.
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harry_lime
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the only thing i questioned was the initial call KN, i didn't mention how you played the rest of the hand.
given that i appear alone in my general synopsis of a couple of these hands, perhaps some other, more qualified views would be better. 
a question though :
would you have called the raise here if you weren't suited ?
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Know-nuffin
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| harry_lime wrote: | the only thing i questioned was the initial call KN, i didn't mention how you played the rest of the hand.
I know that Harry, but I'm keen to hear what your thoughts are once I made the call, especially about my 50/50 theory.
given that i appear alone in my general synopsis of a couple of these hands, perhaps some other, more qualified views would be better.
You use to play a lot of 7CS, do you think it is so much different when played as a hi/lo as to be more akin to O8
a question though :
would you have called the raise here if you weren't suited ?
Drop 'em in a heartbeat m8.
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HOUSECATS
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I have never played hi/lo limit until we started playing here so i like all the comments on these hands. When i play i just play like i do 7stud if i think i am beat by 5th street i get out.
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harry_lime
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Hopefully this will qualify what i meant about PoolDemon's hand and my thinking there. You'll see on 5th street when Brian turns the 4 how good his overall odds to take either the high, lo or scoop are. Even with no other club showing, Pool is less than 50% to win the high and very likely to lose the low. This also doesn't take into account mura's club which will bring the percentage down a bit more.
I changed Brians hand to a 4 spades (to take away his flush draw) and this still only leaves Pool at around 50/50 to take the high hand.
Of course this doesn't give the whole picture but i hope explains better my original read on the hand. So i would have read Brians hand fairly correctly (we can forget about his flush draw for this purpose) and i would still fold for the reasons i gave originally. It's that 4th low card which really makes the difference and obviously with Pool not believing Brian had it, changes everything.
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harry_lime
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| Know-nuffin wrote: | | harry_lime wrote: | the only thing i questioned was the initial call KN, i didn't mention how you played the rest of the hand.
I know that Harry, but I'm keen to hear what your thoughts are once I made the call, especially about my 50/50 theory.
if you insist, i'll take a look tomorrow when i have a bit more time. perhaps give some others the chance to chip in with some views.
given that i appear alone in my general synopsis of a couple of these hands, perhaps some other, more qualified views would be better.
You use to play a lot of 7CS, do you think it is so much different when played as a hi/lo as to be more akin to O8
it's a very, very different game in my opinion.
a question though :
would you have called the raise here if you weren't suited ?
Drop 'em in a heartbeat m8.
yeah, i figured as much.
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Mad4Cards
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As a lover of HORSE and someone who plays it in ring I have to say that stud8 took me the longest time to learn. It's way more complex than O8 and regular 7 card stud. I like hands that by 5th street can challenge for both hi and lo. I never play straight draws before 4th street. I only play high pairs or excellent lo starters ( 4 high max) unless I'm bring in and get to see 4th street for free. If I'm gonna bluff the hand there is no way I wait till 7th street. I'm much more likely to check raise 5th and or 6th. I never call a bet based on pot odds because in limit you always have pot odds and it's the fastest way to lose. Tok me a year of playing HORSE to start to feel comfortable with playing the stud sections of the game...as DangerMouse will attest to lol. I spent many a night ranting about how much I loved HORSE but hated stud. In short it's not a game you can learn overnight. The breakthrough for me came when I was confidently able to read other hands at the table and tell them exactly what they were holding( Great for bluffing btw )Often checking your own outs is useless cos you've been beaten as early as 5th street and are drawing dead. My advice to any newcomers to this game is to study other players carefully and check hand histories after each hand is played....way too many cards to get a quick read of the action from the show at the end of a hand.
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Know-nuffin
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| harry_lime wrote: | ...I know that Harry, but I'm keen to hear what your thoughts are once I made the call, especially about my 50/50 theory.[/color][/b]
if you insist, i'll take a look tomorrow when i have a bit more time. perhaps give some others the chance to chip in with some views.
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I appreciate that Harry, your views are always so objective.
| HOUSECATS wrote: | | I have never played hi/lo limit until we started playing here so i like all the comments on these hands. When i play i just play like i do 7stud if i think i am beat by 5th street i get out. |
Same for me HC never played stud hi/lo before mlp. My current thinking is that if I do not have a made hand by 4th street or am drawing to a strong hand (hard to tell whether or not you have the nuts) then fold.
Mad's comment about using the history as a learning tool, works in many various games. I like the tip on pot odds, and will turn that one over a few times in my mind.
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DangerMouse
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I`d agree with Mad, it`s the toughest of the games to wrap your head round. I grasped the other games pretty easily but stud hi/lo took a while. If anyone wants to read a good section on it get super system II. Todd Brunson`s section on the game is a great read. If anyone would like a copy drop me a pm I have SSII as an e-book and am more than willing to share it.
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PoolDemon
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| DangerMouse wrote: | I`d agree with Mad, it`s the toughest of the games to wrap your head round. I grasped the other games pretty easily but stud hi/lo took a while. If anyone wants to read a good section on it get super system II. Todd Brunson`s section on the game is a great read. If anyone would like a copy drop me a pm I have SSII as an e-book and am more than willing to share it.
hey teamie, I'd love a copy of that...MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Brian Wills
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Can I just say that I hope KN & Pool are not offended by this post. I really dont think any of us played the hands extremely badly.
I just wanted to get a discussion going around a game that is quite new to many of us
In reference to the KN hand.
KN had 3750 (7 after the hand ) & I had just under 2800.
The key point in this hand is my double bet on 5th when I was showing AA. At this point we both had a pair & knew it was just a high battle.
KN had 1200 in the pot & I was trying to him you off the flush draw by putting my remaining 1700 on the line. Plus if you hit your flush I still have a chance to hit my Fullhouse.
So my question is was this enough to make him fold the flush draw, or could I have checked to see a possible miss then move in on 6th?
And from KNs view, could he have released the flush draw with over 2.5K left?
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PoolDemon
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ok, lots of thought on hand # 2, great to see them all, time for me to post my real thoughts on the hand, & the complete hand info itself :
starting stacks, me 2183, Brian 2338
around the table, of importance, 1 diamond, & 1 club is showing, Brian has an ace showing, I am the bring in.
Brian completes to 100, I call as I have 3 clubs, 2 of which are low.
4th street I show an ace clubs, gives me 4 clubs, & 6,2,ace, for low, I lead out betting or bluffing 100, Brian calls.
5th street, I hit a 10, I bluff-bet 200, Brian calls, I don't think I have a decent low draw anymore, (i don't bet runner runner hands) but he's not showing a dominating low hand, IMO...
6th street, another blank, I check to see if Brian really has any kind of hand, he checked also, so if I hit anything on the river I'm def. betting.
7th st, I hit the ace high flush & bet the 200 i'm allowed to bet, Brian calls.
now, by not knowing what Brian has, I can't see why i should have folded on 5th street, I had drawn a blank, but, his draw looked for the low now, as he didn't re-raise me on 4th street to at least imply he had an ace in the hole, I assumed correctly he was drawing also.
Checking 6th street, & getting it checked back shows I was right in my assumtion that he really didin't have much, poker is not just about math, you have to wing it sometimes, my feeling now that if I hit anything on 7th st it would put me ahead was bang on.
So does that info & my thoughts on it make any difference ?
Also, what does that program say for my odds of winning without brians hole cards inputed, I think I had at least a very good draw to worst case a split pot, which means I don't lose the chips I already have in the pot.
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PoolDemon
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| Brian Wills wrote: | Can I just say that I hope KN & Pool are not offended by this post. I really dont think any of us played the hands extremely badly.
I just wanted to get a discussion going around a game that is quite new to many of us
absulutely no offence, to that or any replies, I really wish we could discuss more of these hands more often, differences of opinion welcomed !!!
hand #1 received no comments really, but that is a prime example of someone (me) playing and doing something else @ the same time, totally a crap hand, never even should have been played, but by being distracted, only thing I remember about it is I thought I had 4 low by 4th street, & was playing for a split pot against an obvious high hand, and ended up sucking out badly...moral of story, don't eat & play, you might suck out, or you might lose a bunch of chips...
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Know-nuffin
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Not offended at all, this is a valuable insight.
Thanks for finding the history, I didn't think I was as high as 7K, if I did it was an easier call to complete.
Once I got the 4th suited, I clamped my teeth like a terrier.  I know Harry will answer later on my 50/50 theory with a 4 flush.  Do you think the thought of, 'one of the four suits will come out next card so with two to turn I have a 50% chance,' has any merit ?
Definitely could have let it go with 2.5K, but sometimes you gotta make a stab at the big pot. 
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harry_lime
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| PoolDemon wrote: | So does that info & my thoughts on it make any difference ?
good you added the whole hand Pool. the fact that you are bet/bluffing makes all the difference of course. added that you got a free card on 6th street was also a bonus. as i said initially, the betting does make a huge difference. i'm not in love with the bluff here but it certainly isn't a particulaly bad play.
Also, what does that program say for my odds of winning without brians hole cards inputed, I think I had at least a very good draw to worst case a split pot, which means I don't lose the chips I already have in the pot.
unfortunately, it can't do that. i really just wanted to show the odds at the stage so you could see my thinking behind how i was seeing the hand. Brian's hand turned out to be pretty much as he was playing it although there is certainly an arguement for him to re-raise on 5th street and represent the low hand especially as he had the potential scoop on. if Brian had been the raiser on 5th street, i still contest that the correct play is a fold but as he was the caller in this instance the more interesting question would be "would you have called, if Brian had re-raised on 5th street" ?
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PoolDemon
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Yes Harry, if I faced a re-raise on 5th street, holding only a draw to the high, i would have folded there...
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harry_lime
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| PoolDemon wrote: | | Yes Harry, if I faced a re-raise on 5th street, holding only a draw to the high, i would have folded there... |
....good man !
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