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DangerMouse
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SNG HandThis hand is from an $8+80 satellite 18 player sng. It`s the final table, 5 places get a $26 ticket, 6th gets $10.
Full Tilt Poker Game #6572355565: Tier One $8+$0.80 (49950943), Table 2 - 120/240 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:37:32 ET - 2008/05/26
Seat 1: pioppa (3,755)
Seat 2: PoeBoy R (4,140)
Seat 3: lattemacchiato1 (2,335)
Seat 5: ts2 (1,390)
Seat 6: Caseypigen (1,015)
Seat 7: DangerMouse420 (4,105)
Seat 8: Leplieurmaske (10,260)
DangerMouse420 posts the small blind of 120
Leplieurmaske posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DangerMouse420 [Kh Ah]
pioppa folds
PoeBoy R folds
lattemacchiato1 folds
ts2 folds
Caseypigen folds
DangerMouse420 calls 120
Leplieurmaske checks
*** FLOP *** [5h 4s Ad]
DangerMouse420 bets 480
Leplieurmaske folds
Uncalled bet of 480 returned to DangerMouse420
DangerMouse420 mucks
DangerMouse420 wins the pot (480)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 480 | Rake 0
Board: [5h 4s Ad]
Seat 1: pioppa didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: PoeBoy R didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: lattemacchiato1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: ts2 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Caseypigen (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: DangerMouse420 (small blind) collected (480), mucked
Seat 8: Leplieurmaske (big blind) folded on the Flop
So, how many people would play the hand like I did? Do you like the way I played it or hate it?
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Know-nuffin
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That's good play. Your single aim was to get a ticket not to accumulate chips.
A pre-flop raise could easily have looked like a steal and prompted an OTT re-raise. (Depending upon how big stack/blind had been playing)
You had a look at the flop in a way that was not going to commit you, and when you hit, bet an amount you were able to leave behind if necessary.
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Arjonius
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| Know-nuffin wrote: | That's good play. Your single aim was to get a ticket not to accumulate chips.
A pre-flop raise could easily have looked like a steal and prompted an OTT re-raise. (Depending upon how big stack/blind had been playing)
You had a look at the flop in a way that was not going to commit you, and when you hit, bet an amount you were able to leave behind if necessary. |
While I certainly agree accumulating chips isn't a high priority, I'm not sure I really like limping. While it's possible a pre-flop raise could be seen as a steal, how likely is that since - as you said - your situation is one where stealing isn't important. If the big stack is going to try bullying, it seems more likely after a limp than a bet.
And then what? Call his raise and play the hand out of position after your limp-call has revealed you have at least some kind of hand? Not awful, but not great either. For example, what do you do the two-thirds of the time you miss the flop?
Re-raise? That puts you into big pot territory when it's better to be playing small pots.
Fold? Bleh.
And what if the BB checks, as he did, and you miss the flop? If you lead out, then why didn't you raise pre-flop to begin with? Checking is likely to elicit a bet, and then what?
So I don't think limping here is awful, but neither do I think it's clearly best. So, I neither like nor dislike this line much; I could also say the same about raising and folding.
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Know-nuffin
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Ah  I like your way of thinking Arjon, and agree with the strategy.
If DM was gonna put in 480 in total it may as well have been pre-flop as much as post-flop.
I can see that as the correct play in cash and tourney play, but still have a nagging feel with 7 left (6th paid $'s) and 5 tickets, seat 3, 5 and 6 will all have to pay blinds before DM and have only 2-5 xbb, I'd look to not get myself in too deep.
That prolly says more about my attitude to satellites than correct play.
Maybe it should be fold pre-flop....  naaaaaah you can't lay them down pre-flop. 
Hmmmmmmm you got me thinking now  ...and that's always dangerous because it usually leads me to doing something really dumb. 
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DangerMouse
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Always good to hear diferent opinions. Ok well this happened a few hands later.
Full Tilt Poker Game #6572404713: Tier One $8+$0.80 (49950943), Table 2 - 120/240 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:41:58 ET - 2008/05/26
Seat 1: pioppa (5,275)
Seat 2: PoeBoy R (4,370)
Seat 3: lattemacchiato1 (1,975)
Seat 6: Caseypigen (1,550)
Seat 7: DangerMouse420 (3,570)
Seat 8: Leplieurmaske (10,260)
DangerMouse420 posts the small blind of 120
Leplieurmaske posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DangerMouse420 [Ac Kc]
pioppa folds
PoeBoy R folds
lattemacchiato1 folds
Caseypigen folds
DangerMouse420 raises to 720
Leplieurmaske folds
Uncalled bet of 480 returned to DangerMouse420
DangerMouse420 mucks
DangerMouse420 wins the pot (480)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 480 | Rake 0
Seat 1: pioppa didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: PoeBoy R didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: lattemacchiato1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Caseypigen (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: DangerMouse420 (small blind) collected (480), mucked
Seat 8: Leplieurmaske (big blind) folded before the Flop
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PoolDemon
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the stack sizes of the others is very important, if top 5 have same prize, you have enough chips to survive playing small pots, & outlast the 2 low stacks.
was the big stack folding the majority of his hands, or playing many, if he's coasting into the ticket a raise is the best, if he's playing a lot of hands, luck has been on his side & A2 could smash your AK...
so either play is good, ifhe folds, but what would you do to a re-raise if he didn't fold, now you would be left with marginal lead over the 2 short stacks ?
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DangerMouse
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| Arjonius wrote: | | Know-nuffin wrote: | That's good play. Your single aim was to get a ticket not to accumulate chips.
A pre-flop raise could easily have looked like a steal and prompted an OTT re-raise. (Depending upon how big stack/blind had been playing)
You had a look at the flop in a way that was not going to commit you, and when you hit, bet an amount you were able to leave behind if necessary. |
While I certainly agree accumulating chips isn't a high priority, I'm not sure I really like limping. While it's possible a pre-flop raise could be seen as a steal, how likely is that since - as you said - your situation is one where stealing isn't important. If the big stack is going to try bullying, it seems more likely after a limp than a bet. . |
For once the guy wasn`t playing big stack poker. He had arrived at the table with about 9k and hadn`t been involved in a huge number of pots. I`d limped in once or twice before and been allowed to see the flop. I figured if he raised he actually had something.
| Arjonius wrote: |
And then what? Call his raise and play the hand out of position after your limp-call has revealed you have at least some kind of hand? Not awful, but not great either. For example, what do you do the two-thirds of the time you miss the flop?
Re-raise? That puts you into big pot territory when it's better to be playing small pots.
Fold? Bleh. .
And what if the BB checks, as he did, and you miss the flop? If you lead out, then why didn't you raise pre-flop to begin with? Checking is likely to elicit a bet, and then what?
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If he raised I probably would have thrown my hand away. I certainly wouldn`t have called and whilst the re-raise all-in would have been a very powerful play I don`t think the situation merits the risk. If I miss the flop I check, if he bets he can have it. If the flop had had a slightly different texture I might have tried to induce a steal but I didn`t like the straight possibilities so I closed it down immediately despite hitting the ace.
| Arjonius wrote: |
So I don't think limping here is awful, but neither do I think it's clearly best. So, I neither like nor dislike this line much; I could also say the same about raising and folding. |
I agree with a lot of what you say. The hand could be played aggressively and reach the same results or I might have won more if I`d led out. What I didn`t want was for him to call and have position on me after the flop. If I miss it do I c-bet or give it up? That`s a much tougher situation imo and I didn`t want to tangle with the only guy at the table who could afford to gamble on a big pot. I was in 3rd (only about 35 chips from 2nd) and there were players who were getting very short. I had time to wait because at that stage only a mistake on my part was going to get me knocked out.
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Arjonius
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IMO, the thing on this hand is that limping seems to be the action most likely to lead to situations where there aren't clear-cut actions; i.e. where there are two or more reasonable answers to questions such as the ones I asked.
Given the big stack was playing conservatively - which he should be if he has half a clue since he has more than enough chips to fold his way to a seat - I lean somewhat more toward raising pre-flop than before. Even if the BB has AA, he should probably fold since he's essentially certain to win a seat by sitting out until two people bust. Even if he's not quite that tight, his calling range is probably very narrow. If we assume something like JJ and above plus AK, it's well under 5% of all hands. And his re-raise range should be even smaller. So raising wins a large majority of the time. And I'd guess 2.5BB or maybe even a min-raise would work just as well as betting more, which slightly mitigates what risk there is.
On the other hand, is it worth risking the amount of a raise to win the blinds? How much would winning increase your probability of finishing top five, which is already quite good anyway? Not much. Also it seems likely that the two small stacks will be looking to push within the next few hands, before they've paid the blinds or at worst, in the blinds. While the relative stack sizes are such that both have some fold equity, there would seem to be a fair chance that the next orbit will make things clearer. This consideration nudges me toward playing more conservatively by limping or even folding.
On balance, I think I'd raise to 600 or 650 pre-flop.
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zarger11
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I think limping in both situations is the right play. Top 5 get the same prize...so this isnt about winning the tournament. Think about it in terms of a WSOP Main event deat. Why would you raise into the chip leader who has you out chipped 3-1, when there are 2 short stacks with about 1/3 the amount of chips you have?
There is no reason to play aggressive. That would be the incorrect play.
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